First though, Robert Bates joins us,
research director at the Center for
Migration Control. Robert, very good
afternoon to you. Your immediate
thoughts on that breaking verdict, that
breaking news story, the judge in this
case has upheld the um the case that
Eping Council brought against the
government. Your thoughts, sir?
Afternoon.
>> Afternoon, Ben. Uh so, first of all, I
think this is an interesting change in
what we saw in 2022 when many councils
brought similar injunctions against the
home offices decision to use hotels in
their areas. Most of those injunctions
were struck down because it wasn't a
judge that the hotels had deviated too
much from the uh purported activity that
was meant to be conducted on their
premises. What I think this shows now
with this ruling is that there is a
judgment now and there's a sense that
things with when it comes to the use of
hotels have changed on the ground and
there is a growing realization actually
this 15 billion pound contract the arcs
contract under which these hotels are
being used is now something that's
becoming a lot more permanent and a lot
more of a fixation on many high streets
across the country than it was perhaps
thought it would initially be. I think
the Home Office played an absolute
stinker by only filing um a lastm minute
attempt to have their voice heard when
it came to the contemplations because of
course this does have widespread
ramifications in the home office's words
to the rest of the hotel system the rest
of the use of a contingency
accommodation
>> in the sense that other councils are now
going to say well actually Eping got an
injunction we want we want one too.
>> Exactly. And I think this really is a
big moment because of course as I said
in 2022 most injunctions on this basis
were falling falling flat and falling on
death here. So something has clearly
changed here and many councils
especially to reform run will be now
looking to make similar political gains
on the basis of this.
>> We we know about the cost. We know it's
an absurd amount of money that the
government is rightly trying to reduce.
Robert, but in terms of actual
communities, what is the damage that is
done? What is the harm that is done by
asylum seekers living in hotels in
places like Eping and and elsewhere
across the country?
Well, when you read anecdotally, I think
there is a growing sense of unease. And
I think I think there would be if a
hundred men of any background were
suddenly introduced into a community
that had previously been quite
tight-knit and quite high trust. I think
especially when you consider that many
of these individuals are throwing
passports over the sides of boats and
there is very little actually known
about who these individuals are for them
to be just allowed to wander around the
streets of communities. Um, we know that
many individuals are coming from
backgrounds in countries that are
perhaps more culturally distant than u
and less u attuned to British norms and
haven't quite gone through the same
socialization process that you would
expect people that sounds a lot like
people don't like them because they're
foreign.
>> I don't think it's because they're
foreign. I think it is when you look at
some of the statistics a lot of these
people are coming from places such as
Afghanistan and Eratraa. When you look
at data these are nationalities that are
over represented in sexual offense.
>> Okay, I'll rephrase that. It sounds an
awful lot like people don't like them
because they're Afghan. Are they doing
tangible harm in the communities where
they're being housed? Or is this just a
case of a small group of people saying
we don't like them because of where they
come from?
>> Well, when I think you think when you
look at places like Lambbeirth,
Warikshire, Essex, All Dogs,
Bournemouth, Manchester, and Portsmouth
where there have been reported uh sexual
assaults and violence against women
conducted by people in asylum seekers.
Then when you look at reports that
hundreds of asylum seekers are being
charged with things from robbery, GBH,
sexual assault and rape as well, there's
a general sense of well actually these
are people that we don't know anything
about. There is an increased risk and
you might argue it is only a small risk
but the risk is nonetheless increased to
these communities. When you do bring in
large groups of individuals uh from
backgrounds that we don't perhaps know
about and as I said have gone through
different socialization processes than
people of a similar age would have gone
through in Britain.
>> It is a small number, Robert. Of course
it is. And I am going to say that you're
right. Good prediction. But I'm also
going to say that actually as an overall
proportion of the crimes in most of
these areas, it is still tiny. And there
are people who don't get particularly
exercised when crimes are committed by
any other person of any other color or
any other ethnicity or nationality. But
suddenly when it's asylum seekers, all
the rest of them need to be moved out
the area. It it's it's taring them all
with the with the actions of a very tiny
minority, isn't it? Well, I I think the
reason people feel agrieved is that
those and those number of crimes, and I
would argue it's it's a lot larger than
it should be, are the direct result of
decisions taken by the home office to
not detain these individuals in secure
facilities whilst asylum applications
are being processed, but instead to
allow them free reign in communities.
So, this is a direct result when you
compare it with the crimes that are
committed, and there are undoubtedly
many, many crimes committed by
Britishborn people and and people that
have arrived in the country as legal
migrants as well. But those are
decisions that have these those are
actions that have have taken have been
taken not as a result of government
policy which has introduced these people
to the
>> when you say secure facilities you would
like these the people coming here to
claim asylum to be to be locked up
effectively until their claims are
processed.
>> I think that's appropriate. Yes. I don't
think we have quite the facilities at
the moment. I think that's uh the result
of massive government underinvestment in
detention immigration removal centers
for well
>> why should they why should they all be
treated as criminals when the vast vast
vast majority of them aren't and never
will be
>> well a large number of them of course a
large number of asylum seekers have come
into the UK on small boats and we're now
seeing the Labour party begin to detain
a small of these individuals as well
>> why should they all be locked up as if
they're criminals
>> well because we don't know their
background where you compare that with
the process that a legal migrant has to
go through where they're having to
confirm um um criminal record histories
and they're having background checks
conducted on these are individuals that
haven't had background checks conducted
on them. So it just seems to me and I
think it seems to a large uh proportion
of the British population that it a
sensible thing to do even if there's a
small risk is to make sure that these
individuals before we know who they are
before we've assessed their asylum claim
are kept in places where they are not
allowed to go and commit crimes against
the British.
>> Would that include the children in your
view?
>> It would it would include the children.
Yes, it would include the children. the
children that are fleeing the Taliban
and you know famine in places like Sudan
and you'd when they come here you'd
imprison them.
>> The the number of children coming is a
very very small number of them.
>> Sure. But I'm just asking what should
happen to those children who aren't you
know they're not likely to go out and
commit crime. I think sixy old kids
>> well I mean that's an even smaller
proportion of course 90% of them or so
are over of adults and most of those
children are 16 17 year olds. So let's
not let the kind of tiny number there
might be children that coming over uh
guide our policy overall.
>> But I just wonder whether the children
that are whether you think they should
also be put in detention camps as well.
>> Well, you'd hopefully think they were
with adults. So of course the
appropriate place for them to be is to
with be with their adults as well to be
with their responsible parents or be
with their parents, be with the adults
that they've come over with as well. So
I don't think there's anything wrong
with that. Now
>> okay, Robert, appreciate your time.
Thank you very much for coming on.
Robert Bates, research director at the
Center for Migration Control.